Update Midland Suburban Line

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by Drag0nflamez on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:12 pm

60 quid a year? Is that a joke?

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by graymac on Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:49 pm

60 quid a year? Is that a joke?

It could be described as a joke, but not by the person who's paying.

I have several sites which I design and maintain for clients, as well as my own site(s). I am using two providers, Letshost.ie and hostingireland.ie If you see the rates they offer as a starting point, then look to see if you can better the service or price. It does not need to be a provider in your resident country, though be mindful of currency exchange rates when comparing.
Also be aware that a generous bandwidth allowance is essential due to the large downloads.
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by mrknowitall on Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:40 pm

It is a pricey subject when it comes to buying a domain name and then getting a good web provider, Our new site is roughly £15 a month (or for 3 month I could be wrong) but either way your looking at at least £50+ per annum for a good site! I will be downloading this route at some point to give it a run though.

To the site owner i would give you a few tips, if your sites costly, go to google, basic but free, as for hosting go to dropbox, 5GB free and you could package everything up and then because its synced with your PC all you have to do for an update is drag and drop new files and you don't even need to change the source link for download. i add tweaks to my uploaded files almost every week and its easy too, also will you be doing your site up at any point? Apart from the new downloads everything seems either out dated or been worked on.

Ben
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by James on Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:21 pm

This is an outstanding new route, so a big 'thank you' to its creator.

Starting with the installation - this was pretty straight-forward (and I am a complete novice with that sort of thing) as although the files are split up, there is a very useful PDF provided which explains where they should go. My only error was that I put the buildings files direct into the 'Midland Suburban Line' folder within the 'object' folder. The result of this is that some of the buildings appear on the route, but some are missing. Once I'd discovered my error and manually created a folder called 'buildings' for them to go into, everything worked perfectly. The error was mine - the PDF does explain what to do correctly.

The thing which particularly stands out about this route is its atmosphere. You really feel as if you've gone back a few decades, to an age of semaphore signals, stencil speed restriction signs, routemaster buses, hissing vacuum brakes and the 'clack-clack' of the wheels on the rail joints. Everything about it feels 'right', and there are really no dips in quality of objects or realism to spoil the illusion. Even innovations like the claps of thunder - which might have come across a little 'toy-like' - are well enough done that they work, and really add to the atmosphere.

Operationally, I was unsure how well the route would work. It's a fairly lengthy drive of low line speeds and short runs between stops, and I wondered whether it would become monotonous. I needn't have worried. The gradient changes, junctions, continuous curves and bridges, and the different character of different parts of the route mean it never gets boring. Controlling the fantastic BVE TMD DMUs on this continuously changing infrastructure is a real challenge. I've driven the route a number of times, and have plenty of space for improvement yet.

One of the main contributions to the operational interest is the timetable. There is a tendency for some timetables on BVE routes to be too 'tight', so that the train has to be run hard to the linespeed at all times to keep to schedule. As in reality, the timetables on this route include a bit of 'slack', and that is where the Driver's art takes on its subtleties; the knowledge of the timetable, gradients and speed restrictions which tells you where and when it is beneficial to run to line speed, and where the power can be 'shut off' and the train allowed to coast, whilst still ensuring a right time arrival at the next station. The aim is to save fuel and wear on brakes and other equipment by avoiding unnecessary use of excessive power, and braking. If you find yourself hanging around at the stations for over 30 seconds awaiting time, you're running too hard. In other words - this route makes you think about what you're doing, and plan ahead.

In terms of future development, I have a couple of, hopefully constructive, suggestions:

Firstly, I'm uncertain about positioning of the AWS magnets. In some cases I can't quite work out which signals they relate to. Some seem to be alongside signals, rather than 200 yards in advance, as in reality.

Secondly, it would be great to have a timetable which gives the possibility of some random signal checks. Currently, as far as I can tell, once the starter signal at Kentish Town clears, it's guaranteed clear signals all the way to Barking. It would be nice to have the possibility of some variation, to keep the Driver on his toes.

Finally (a little one), for all the excellence of the timetable, the running time allowed from Woodgrange Park to Barking seems at least a minute short - I don't think it's achievable with the very low line speeds on this section, so a late arrival at Barking results. A minute or two added would be great.


When criticism come down to things as small as that, you know you've got a great route - and it really is. It's fantastic to have a route which captures a by-gone age so perfectly. A huge thank you to its creator for all his hard work.



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update Midland Suburban Line

Post by mobile1 on Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:57 pm

James, a big thankyou for your in depth review, this is exactly what i was after, I will amend the existing route file at the earliest opportunity, as soon as the new later dated route file is ready, i will include it with yours and others recommdations... it is progressing well, the point work leaving Gospel Oak is giving me a headache...anyway thankyou...regards
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by david673 on Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:16 pm

Brilliant! This is up there with Cross city south and NWM, congratulations, and I look forward to more.
Just when I thought it was all over for OpenBVE, you have given me hope for the future.
David

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by mobile1 on Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:50 pm

David, thank you for that, i dont think i agree with comparing it with NWM or xcity but i am glad you liked it, the up to date (well 2000ish) route file is coming on well, I thought it would be an easy conversion, but a lot of it has to be re written, one station was moved completely in the 80`s, most of the station buildings etc were changed, as was the signalling, although there was still some semaphores still in place even then..The route will be timed for the Class 150 ( you may want to get the BVETMD London Midland Class 150 3car for this), at the same time the updated Kentish town to Barking route file will be posted..there were several mistakes in the original route file...After the Dudden hill to Temple Mills run is finished (class 37 or the expected class 33), i then want to try a main line run..we`ll see..regards
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by James on Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:23 am

Just a small correction - the London Midland Class 150 is at BVE 4 Trains.

https://sites.google.com/a/bve4trains.com/bve4trains/dmu-downloads

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update Midland Suburban Line

Post by mobile1 on Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:37 pm

Thank you James, my mistake...regards
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by tonytrainsfree1 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:19 pm

got the route but the route not comeing up did put it in the right fouder

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by Northern Line on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:42 pm

Are you sure about that? Make a new folder in objects, and sounds and name them Midland:space: Suburban:space:Line in it. The route file is already in its own folder.

Any question do ask Smile

The only problem I have is the signals are not showing (semaphore)


Last edited by Northern Line on Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:45 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Added bold headings)
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by graymac on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:14 am

You have to put BrSemaSigs into the Midland objects folder - there's a link near the beginning of this thread with folder structure guidance,see here
http://bveworldwide.unlimitedboard.com/t659-update-midland-suburban-line#7855
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by BillEWS on Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:26 pm

To drive a DMU you... Once everything is up and running.

With part brake applied, place into first gear and open controller slowly to engage gear then fully release brake and open controller in stages until the Tacometer raises to high end of the yellow guage. This is around 15 mph. Close controller and allow reves to return to idle, or at least are at the bottom end of the yellow guage. Select second gear, open controller, again, slowly in stages up to full power. The Tacometer will rise to maximum and speed should be around 25 mph. The gradient dictates how long this will take, as will the state of repair of the engines and gears. In BVE/Openbve they are usually fully serviced.

Around 25 mph, close controller and allow reves to return to idling. Select third gear and once again, open controller slowly then open fully in stages while speed rises to round 30 mph.

Keep to same working procedure until 40-45 mph is reached then you can go into top (4th Gear) and run up to maximum speed. You also coast in 4th gear. Only reducing the gear if/when speed reduces to below 40 mph, 30 mph and 15 mph respectfully.

Coast to a stand whether at station or signal and once you come to a stand, with brakes applied, place gear into neutral. You should never stand still with the train in any gear setting.

While you need to be in the appropriate gear for the speed and gradient you should not run at maximum reves in the lower gears for long periods as the engines will over heat and you create considerable wear & tear to the engines, gearing and drive shafts. Only stay in full power if you know that you can get over the gradient in reasonable time and can change up gear once again when the speed starts to increase. This is where route knowledge plays it's part in running correctly at each stage of the way.

You can stay in full power while in 4th gear, providing you don't go over the maximum speed, usually 70 mph, and should shut off power or select a lowersetting if the gradient allows you to keep to the maximum speed of the unit and/or line speed while cruising. However, as mentioned, you should go down into the next lower gear if you start running below 40 mph and likewise for the other maximum for each lower gear.

The earlier BVE DMU's were all wrong in that they allowed you to go to maximum speed even while in first gear! These latest Openbve Units are much more realistic.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by James on Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:24 pm

The only variation with an OpenBVE DMU (as opposed to a real one) is that when the revs reach the top of the gauge, you have to change gear to make the revs drop. If you shut off power but stay in gear - as you do in reality - the revs won't drop.

i.e.

Real DMU: Shut off power - wait for revs to drop - change gear - take power
BVE DMU: Shut off power - change gear - wait for revs to drop - take power

It's an unavoidable characteristic of the way the control system is simulated, and is a small compromise to accept.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by BillEWS on Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:37 pm

I have just been trying Midland Suburban Line with the 108 and you are correct. It isn't really set correctly. The reves should rise to the high end of the yellow Tacometer guage and when you shut off the power it should slowly drop to the lower edge of the yellow area, when you next select next gear and open the throttle a stage at a time. That is how we learned it and it was the same for all/most of the other DMU types. There may have been exceptions as I haven't driven all types of DMU. There was a good number of types and there was also the Rolls Royce sets at St. Pancrease which had automatic gears, I believe!

I am having trouble with Midland Suburban in that I may have downloaded incorrctly. I placed ALL the dowload files into one folder but there appears to be many 'Up' signals missing and probably some scenery. I will have to have another go at downloading the files. Other than that the route looks very good.

I worked over the route for many years and also signed it as a driver but only to Temple Mills Yard and the Freightliner depot. I did get over to Barking once as a second man but didn't really know the route from South Tottenham. It was nice seeing the route from Kensal Town and Junction Road Junction with the stations to South Tottenham, where I would have appreiated being able to carry straight on to Stratford. Oh well! perhaps that will come about another time!

I noted one error in a ground signal, in running direction, and showing a 'danger' aspect, which is wrong. That means you should stop at the ground signal and go no further, which effectly means 'Game Over' in this instance. Likewise, the speed restrictions at South Tottenham are the wrong way round in that it was 10 mph towards Stratford with the curve towards Barking being 30 mph. Initially I like the route very much.

For the moment I suggest you just shut of power and as long as the guage appears to be dropping then select next gear and reopen the throttle.


Last edited by BillEWS on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by James on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:27 pm

There's a very helpful PDF provided with the download which tells you where to put all the files. Follow that carefully, and in particular, make sure you manually create a 'buildings' folder within the 'objects' folder and place the specified files in there. That's the bit I missed, resulting in lots of missing objects.

Once you've got everything to appear where it should, this is a great route.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by BillEWS on Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:34 pm

Thanks James. I thought that this may be the issue. It should only have been the five zipf iles that should have gone into the Object folder. I will sort this out tomorrow. Cheers.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by mobile1 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:27 am

BillEWS, thanks for the info, could you let me know where the incorrect ground signal was, i will change it, however i was under the impression that ground signals were only cleared for shunting or a change of direction...the pdf that Graymac has placed in this post is absolutly correct, i suggest that you copy this for help..I will in future include this idea as a download as a help to others...

As for the South Tottenham turnout, it was a guess as to the line speed, I have a dvd which shows a 40mph restriction before the station and 45 mph after the station, but not the junction... I have now got the figures on a pdf and i will change the speeds on the next update..

If you can remember any details that stood out in your mind about the South Tottenham to Temple Mills section then please let me know, thats the next part to tackle...

You also mention the Stratford line, i presume that was at the junction after South Tottenham, where the Temple Mills line turned off ?, I never worked that part, only the Ponderosa (Kentish Town to Barking), as we called it then...and to Temple Mills...mind you only as a guard in the bottom link...regards
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by BillEWS on Sat Oct 13, 2012 11:58 am

Thanks mobile. The 'offending' ground signal is as you approach the platform into South Tottenham station. ALL ground signals that are face-on and part of the running line MUST be clear along with the respective mainline signal(s), Drivers use these signals at large stations & junctions to know which way they are going, only the one(s) in relation to the actual movement will be showing white lights while all other will be at red. To pass such a ground signal at danger is the same offence as passing a main aspect at red. i.e. a Spad.

The line from South Tottenham station to Tottenham South junction is on a steep grade and goes into a very tight (10mph) curve where it joins the Broxbourne line and runs up to Copper Mill Junction. With a long freight train the engine would be almost at Copper Mill before the tail had cleared South Tottenham junction. The goods lines to Stratford also started at South Tottenham, making four tracks up to Lea Bridge. The goods lines went into Temple Mills while the main two lines continued to Stratford East

I haven't seen Tottenham South Junction in many years and think that this link and junction may be closed! Perhaps someone could put me right?

On the goods line from Copper Mill to Lea Bridge, where it passes below the Chingford line there used to be a 'Weave' where the Up & Down Goods ran within each other, which made that section almost a single line as two trains couldn't pass each other and you had to wait at each end of that sections for the 'weave' to be available. If I remember correctly the weave was done away with when they reopened Lea Bridge Station and it became a normal two-way section once again.

This was an interesting line to work over. I first worked over there from 1966 and worked to Stratford from Acton Mainline via both Bedford to Carlton Road Junction, Junction Road Junction and also via Gospel Oak to Junction Road Jnction and again, from Gospel Oak via Camden Road and Hackney to both Stratford Freightliner Depot and to Startford station with Car trains. For a time we also worked via Camden and Primrose Hill to join the Western Mainline at Willesden High Level for Acton Wells. We also worked over the Acton Wells-Willesden ection to turn south towards Clapham, for Chessington South (Goods) and to Hither Green.

We also used Willesden Low Level when working too and from Wembley Yard and the stone trains via Oxford, Bletchley and Bedford to Leagrave Stone Sidings.

If you do the Stratford section and the time period is OK you could open the route for use of Hydraulics as we used to work over the route with both Westerns and the 800 Warship class locos and I am sure even Hymaks got over there ocassionally. Of course, we would have to find BVE and OpenBVE train builders enthusiastic enough to build those types of 'train'.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by James on Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:59 pm

Interesting stuff, Bill.

The curve at South Tottenham is still there, and is used occasionally.

There are no longer any goods lines alongside the main line to Stratford, but the track bed is still very visible, and a number of bridges are still in situ. Lea Bridge station closed, although there is a proposal to re-open it.

A Diesel Hydraulic for OpenBVE would be great! Very Happy

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by RE201 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:59 pm

An excellent route!

For those interested in how to drive early BR DMUs, there is a British Transport driver training film at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS5xiM0LYtA. The openBVE simulated information starts around 9 minutes. There are some really interesting pieces of information, such as only coasting in gear 4, and waiting 2 seconds between a gear change and application of throttle.

Judging by my limited experience, and the way the drivers use the braking in videos, I find the simulated application and release rate of pressure in the dll to be too great. I find my stops clumsy because I cannot control the brake pressure with adequate finesse. It is difficult to control a valve like this with a simple on/off keypress.

Once again, thank you to mobile1 for producing such a great period route.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by BillEWS on Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:20 pm

You need to do a few trials using the LAP positions. Press the > key 2-3 times to apply a working brake force. The fster you go and depending on the gradient you may need to press the > key two or three times more than press the < key to LAP the brake. It holds whichever brake setting you have made at that point and you can watch how the brake is working. It will take a good few tries to get it right.

All Locomotive and Units use a LAP position so you can use the > and < keys to find a happy medium.

To stop the train moving while standing in a station or at a signal always set the brake in the LAP position. Release the brake about 4-5 seconds before departure time and you will be ready to pull away when you receive the buzzer from the guard. A DMU should come to a stand with the brake on LAP with enough brake force to hold the train still once stopped. You don't have to always apply full brake force. In fact, it puts a lot of uneccessay pressure on the brake equipment.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by RE201 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:59 pm

Right, my problem is not in understanding how these braking systems work, but the ability to apply fine changes in brake pipe pressure.

With the dll, I find that quick applications of LAP - APPLY - LAP give a much greater change in brake pipe pressure than I would like to apply, and even a quick LAP- RELEASE - LAP is essentially a complete release.

On a real DMU, these braking systems are set up that the further you move the handle from LAP in either direction, the faster the change in the brake pressure, so on a real DMU, you can change the brake pipe pressure by only a fraction of a PSI by very quickly nudging the brake handle away from the LAP position, or you can whip it all the way into APPLY, very quickly changing the brake pipe pressure, and then "stop on a dime" - as one of the BT films says.

You don't have this sort of haptic control with a computer keyboard, as you only have the ability to control the length of time the brake lever is applied, not the rate of flow of air from the system.

I guess what I am saying, is that the dll does not provide the necessary control to operate these non-self-lapping DMUs they way they would be operated in reality. No matter how good you are at the simulation, you will always be a clumsy driver compared to the real thing, because you lack the full control system that is used in reality.

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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by mobile1 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:47 pm

Hi RE201, I am enjoying this conversation and the comments that are going on , i would like to add my twopence worth ( for most of you, thats 1p new money),, Having, obviously used the vac braked dmu`s on openbve more times than i care to mention, i find that practice makes perfect..I can tap brake, lap quickly enough to give a very gentle stop, i normally start to slow so that i get to the start of the platform at 20mph, then increase the vacuum for a nice gentle stop at the correct point, i probably brake,lap, release as many as 10 times on the stop...I agree that the computer can never simulate the real thing but it comes very close,, a case in mind is the aircraft simulators that some of us privilaged few get to try out..
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

Post by Quork on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:58 pm

Well, Mobile1, I'll quote what driver instructors always say to us: That's a brake, not a water pump!
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Re: Update Midland Suburban Line

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