Replacement 22000 in preparation

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Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 4:58 pm



Work is continuing on a replacement 22000 dmu. A new cab has bee finished. Theoretically it could just be applied to the existing exterior. However I'm intending to add opening doors in line with the upgrade the 29000 had earlier. Possibly an improved mesh will be needed.

This cab has NO AWS or TPWS provided and it is intended to leave it out. No fully satisfactory implementation of CAWS is yet available at this moment in time, although a simple version is available it cannot be used in conjunction with other plug-ins so functionality in other areas is reduced for the gain of a simple ADU display.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by Dexter on Sun May 20, 2012 7:24 pm

It is looking nice, Gray. Smile
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 7:46 pm

Thanks, Derryck. I have it running. The plug-in problem is what annoys me most. If only it was possible to specify various control, signalling and safety sys features all with a cfg file it might help, as long as the documentation for the cfg file was made available in plain language. As it is these things are compiled in C# or something, and it's beyond the scope of a non-programmer to do it. So the working in terms of realism is compromised on all my Irish routes.
I can look to doing the externals anyway. This train is needed for the 50km new route I've made.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by hurricanemk1c on Sun May 20, 2012 7:51 pm

I'm liking it!

Was looking up CAWS on Wikipedia, and the reference was this - "EU Directive 96/48/EC, Document 96/48-ST12 part 3, Interoperability of the trans-European high speed rail system" - despite the fact we have a different gauge to most of Europe (amongst other things)!
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by Quork on Sun May 20, 2012 8:22 pm

Well, we're strongly working towards more interoperability in Europe; both through the EU (with the TSI-norms) and through the UIC. Please note there are several systems for multi-gauge vehicles; some slow, cheap and based on an old design, which are used on cargo carriages, and some quick, a bit more costy and used in passenger trains in Spain.

The english Wikipedia-article is less informative than the german one, so you might try to translate (using Google translate e.g.) the german one, too. Here it is: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umspurung_%28Eisenbahnfahrzeug%29
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 8:35 pm

It's all largely academic. Irish Rail uses a different gauge. We're on an Island in the Atlantic on the outer edge of Europe, there's no way the trains here are going to be integrated - it's too far to bore a tunnel and who's got the money to do it even if it wasn't???
So, on this occassion, with the greatest respect for European unity, I think the EU directive could perhaps be filed up the commissioner's a**e!

We had all the fun with different rail gauges at the same time back in the days Queen Victoria. A Royal Commission decided that a suitable gauge for Irish railways would be "between five-foot and five-foot six inches". Which is where the five-foot three came from.
Multi-gauge wagons are inappropriate for the size of the network here, the volume of traffic and the distances involved being too small. And there is no point in wasting money with common signalling systems just to satisfy some stupid bureaucrats. That is what is wrong with Brussels.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by Quork on Sun May 20, 2012 9:00 pm

I'm not aware of a common signalling system being planned; only a common train protection system, which is a sensible investition.
- ETCS is multifacetted and highly adjustable for the user (just compare ETCS in Switzerland and in Austria)
- The more users a system has, the safer it is, as bugs, shortcommings etc. surface sooner
- At the same time, the single user needs far less money for further improvements and research, as the work is only slightly more than with a one-country-system while the costs are divided on far more users
- The system is, despite being adjusted towards each country, identic when it comes to hardware and mostly identic (and, after the initial phase, completely compatible) with Europe; this means, the components are cheaper to buy for each train. And also, once the initial phase is finished and the countries have their 'personalized' versions, they will all be merged into one software which runs on all trains anywhere. That makes things even cheaper. Just compare to the development of memory card prices since the SD cart emerged as the leading system

Also, train traffic politics are something very long-breathed. Thus it is better to open too many than too few options. It is quite probable there will never be a train service connecting Ireland to any other country (mind probable and sure are different things; the railway ferry system isn't anywhere near dying); but it is far easier to keep the option and never use it, than not keep it and then, in fifty years, discover it would be great but we can't, the door closed 50 years ago...
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 9:14 pm

@Quork - You have a valid point with options in theory. Where it falls down in practice is where the probability of it being useful is low and the simple question of who pays for it? I don't want to be the one picking up the bill for any more crap from Brussels, ordinary people all over the EU have had enough of the wastefulness of the rich and powerful. More than enough, in fact. So called "public money" actually comes from the public and it is not supposed to be wasted.

And not forgetting thanks to hurricane for some cab pictures to feed the photoshop machine. At one point there was about 23 layers in use on the master panel image. Never underestimate the Irish lot, this is a land of geniuses. No money, but world-breaking innovators. Like the Kerry surgeon, performed the world's first pile transplant!

And thanks to Derryck for tipping me the nod about digital displays in a panel2. The kph digital readout in this cab actually works.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by Quork on Sun May 20, 2012 9:24 pm

Well, that's a point, however; most TSI-norms and paneuropean projects, like ETCS, while they often bring some additional initial cost, in the middle- and long-term run are bringing enormous savings with them. Just think about the TSI-crash norms. This faciliates planning of new vehicles dramatically. Platform solutions are internationally more usable; the competition between train producers all over Europe increases, bringing lower costs for the train operators and a market becoming bigger and thus richer in prospects for all train building industry all over the european market. And personally I'd rather have my 50% of my wage invested in any infrastructure project, even low-priority, than endowed to JP Morgan.

EDIT: If Graymac approves, could a mod please separate the discussion into the station pub? That's a fascinating topic for great discussions, but it would be a pity if this would eclipse Gray's habitually grandious cab which definitely deserves more attention.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by alex_farlie on Sun May 20, 2012 9:27 pm

graymac wrote:

Work is continuing on a replacement 22000 dmu. A new cab has bee finished. Theoretically it could just be applied to the existing exterior. However I'm intending to add opening doors in line with the upgrade the 29000 had earlier. Possibly an improved mesh will be needed.

This cab has NO AWS or TPWS provided and it is intended to leave it out. No fully satisfactory implementation of CAWS is yet available at this moment in time, although a simple version is available it cannot be used in conjunction with other plug-ins so functionality in other areas is reduced for the gain of a simple ADU display.

In regard to CAWS - Are you aware of a logic diagram for it's operation online?
(I know there is a logic diagram for TPWS because it's in the relevant Railway Group Standard for the UK mainland railways.)

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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 9:31 pm

See new thread, station pub, cost benefits, and please would admin shovel the rest of it in there?
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by Quork on Sun May 20, 2012 9:54 pm

@Alex - you might try and contact those: http://www.transport.ie/transport/railwaysafety/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1588

I don't know how far IE has implemented competition regulations till now; theoretically, the infrastructure operator should publish all regulations necessary for network access, so that anybody can decide to found their own, private railway company using the public network. DB Netz does:
http://fahrweg.dbnetze.com/site/dbnetz/zubehoer__assets/de/anhaenge/nutzungsbedingungen/betrieblich__technisches__regelwerk/zusammenstellung.pdf
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 10:01 pm

In regard to CAWS - Are you aware of a logic diagram for it's operation online?
(I know there is a logic diagram for TPWS because it's in the relevant Railway Group Standard for the UK mainland railways.)

No, I know of none. But even if I did, can I assume this would be of benefit to compile the logical conditions in some sort of program? If so, it's back to the fundamental fact that I'm NOT a programmer. Not in any language, it all means nothing to me, C#, Java, Perl they're names, that's all.

What I do is simple and plain listing of bits in a .csv routefile and make .b3d object. Animated ones too, IF the code can be scrounged, begged or fiddled by pure luck. My field of expertise is graphics and images on user friendly, never-use-a-command-line Apple Macs.

It would be nice if there were more Anthony Bowdens and Simon Gathercoles out there writing useful stuff like country-specific plug-ins. That I could do with. Managed content, by comparison, is a total non-issue, somewhere about number 27 on my list.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by alex_farlie on Sun May 20, 2012 10:51 pm

graymac wrote:
In regard to CAWS - Are you aware of a logic diagram for it's operation online?
(I know there is a logic diagram for TPWS because it's in the relevant Railway Group Standard for the UK mainland railways.)

No, I know of none. But even if I did, can I assume this would be of benefit to compile the logical conditions in some sort of program? If so, it's back to the fundamental fact that I'm NOT a programmer. Not in any language, it all means nothing to me, C#, Java, Perl they're names, that's all.

The question related to plugin development.

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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by alex_farlie on Sun May 20, 2012 11:07 pm

graymac wrote:
In regard to CAWS - Are you aware of a logic diagram for it's operation online?
(I know there is a logic diagram for TPWS because it's in the relevant Railway Group Standard for the UK mainland railways.)

No, I know of none. But even if I did, can I assume this would be of benefit to compile the logical conditions in some sort of program? If so, it's back to the fundamental fact that I'm NOT a programmer. Not in any language, it all means nothing to me, C#, Java, Perl they're names, that's all.

What I do is simple and plain listing of bits in a .csv routefile and make .b3d object. Animated ones too, IF the code can be scrounged, begged or fiddled by pure luck. My field of expertise is graphics and images on user friendly, never-use-a-command-line Apple Macs.

It would be nice if there were more Anthony Bowdens and Simon Gathercoles out there writing useful stuff like country-specific plug-ins. That I could do with. Managed content, by comparison, is a total non-issue, somewhere about number 27 on my list.

I agree here, one of the other UK systems I'd like to have seen implemented was RETB, which is used on some of the Scottish routes.




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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by hurricanemk1c on Mon May 21, 2012 4:34 pm

I know what the back of a CAWS looks like........... but that doesn't help much!
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Mon May 28, 2012 10:31 pm



To improve appearance it has been decided that basic seating needs to be visible through the windows, and may the lord have mercy on the frame rates.
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by hurricanemk1c on Tue May 29, 2012 9:15 am

Looks good Gray - prehaps the seat need a tad 'fattening' (and don't forget the seat covers on exxactly the same seats in Premier Class!), but otherwise, it looks superb!
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Tue May 29, 2012 9:41 am

Adding even these simple seats increases the loading by 126 textured faces per car. More elaborate seating adds to this. I don't want performance to be degraded by overdoing it, especially for users with more basic machines to run it on.



New 22000 at Knockmore on the Newbridge route.


Last edited by graymac on Tue May 29, 2012 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add pic)
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Thu May 31, 2012 6:54 pm



Now downloadable from the celtictrainsim.com website
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by Quork on Thu May 31, 2012 7:29 pm

Looks great!
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by hurricanemk1c on Thu May 31, 2012 7:51 pm

It is great Quork!
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Re: Replacement 22000 in preparation

Post by graymac on Thu May 31, 2012 8:00 pm

Of course it is, it's Irish!
"Sinne Fianna Fáil, atá faoi gheall ag Éirinn, . . . . . . . . . ." Very Happy

Recommended method of use: Load Irish route, use F2 key and arrows to find seat of choice in saloon, then enjoy a glass (or two) of Guinness while the AI drives you through the countryside. The windows are tinted so you won't be fried by the fierce powerful Irish sun!! Very Happy
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