Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

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Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by odakyufan on Wed May 09, 2012 1:13 pm

I must say that the recent closure of the openBVE homepage and forum took me by surprise and seems impulsive. I have no idea what is going on and whether this is temporary or permanent.

In any case, as part of the official openBVE development team (I have written about a third of the source code), I have decided to put the downloads and the documentation back online, and be that provisionally, before the final fate of the program is decided. I felt this was necessary before third parties rush out to publish their own mods, forks or alleged official versions, so that there is at least an authoritative source of the program, tools and the documentation. You can get everything from my site, and possibily at a later date from Anthony Bowden's site as well. If you download openBVE from our sources, you'll also get the ability to download Add-ons through the game again.

Speaking for myself, if somebody reproduces non-verbatim copies of the program, creates mods or forks, I request that my nickname and real name be removed from the credits, because I don't wish to be associated with them. Also, please refrain from naming them openBVE or TSF, because these names are reserved for the official builds regardless of whether we continue to publish any.


Last edited by Dexter on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:25 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Made as a global announcement.)

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by graymac on Wed May 09, 2012 1:32 pm

Thanks for that assistance. And for making your wishes concerning credits known. Please take note everybody.
It would be a great morale boost to us all here to be sure that you and Anthony intend further involement in the future, in any shape or form. It has been a dreadful surprise to us, and the shortage of any explanations from "on high" hasn't helped. As you can see, there are a great many who wish the sim to continue, and continue it certainly will with the determination of us here on BVEWW as well as elsewhere all over the globe.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Dexter on Wed May 09, 2012 1:41 pm

That is good news, thanks for that. And kudos to Ben for setting it as a Global announcement. Very Happy
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by 750DC on Wed May 09, 2012 7:42 pm

Thank you odakyufan for making the openBVE documents download available through your website. I can now carry on with writing my route! Thanks also BVE Worldwide.

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Dexter on Fri May 11, 2012 12:20 pm

The original post brings me to one question. Why should it be refrained from using names "openBVE" and "TSF"? As far as I remember, Michelle was always claiming that the simulator is open source and therefore ready to be taken and modified by anyone. To be honest, I have never read anything contradictory.

So maybe I am being thick, but I don't understand why those names are to be omitted if no development will be made on your side... I understand you don't want to be associated with any eventual forks though.

Just asking for explanation, because "official builds, regardless of if there will be any" sounds a bit like what we've had already...
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by spara on Fri May 11, 2012 7:17 pm

I believe that there is no legal basis for the request not to use the works "openBVE" or "TSF" or any similar terms as they are not Registered Trademarks.

In any case, I believe such a request would go beyond Michelle's honourable original vision of complete transparency.

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by graymac on Fri May 11, 2012 11:04 pm

There may be no legal basis according to the letter of the law. There would, I believe, be a MORAL basis, predicated on respect for the programmers' wishes, as expressed. Michelle's original vision must be kept in mind, but at the same time it was a team effort and the wishes of those team participants carry weight also. How to balance it will need to be resolved.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Quork on Sat May 12, 2012 12:18 am

It should be respected in any case, that Odakyufan does not want to be credited with forks, should any occur. However the name thing - OpenBVE in the last version as published by Michelle is public domain. It wasn't her personal vision for it to be public domain, it is public domain, clearly and definitely labeled as such on the former homepage. Of course, if Odakyufan is going to further develop, this should be respected (apart from, in my eyes, forks being counterproductive then); otherwise, it would be the continuation and thus legitimate to be called OpenBVE, even if he calls it "non-verbatim copies". There is no such thing with public domain (and that's the reason why all other open source projects I know are freely licensed but not public domain). Also, in my eyes, while we have to be deeply grateful towards Michelle, we as a community should clearly say no to a new solo or quasi-solo dev.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Dexter on Sat May 12, 2012 7:21 am

Quork wrote:It should be respected in any case, that Odakyufan does not want to be credited with forks, should any occur. However the name thing - OpenBVE in the last version as published by Michelle is public domain.

That's what I was talking about. Anyway, we still don't know if there already is any outcome of the discussion between the two sides...
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by odakyufan on Sat May 12, 2012 10:06 am

spara wrote:I believe that there is no legal basis for the request not to use the works "openBVE" or "TSF" or any similar terms as they are not Registered Trademarks.
Careful. Also unregistered trademarks may benefit from some kind of protection.

Quork wrote:It wasn't her personal vision for it to be public domain, it is public domain, clearly and definitely labeled as such on the former homepage.
Actually, it was more than a vision than anything else. All versions of openBVE since around 1.0 were first published in the UK - a country that doesn't recognize the concept of releasing something into the public domain AFAIK. We have an international group of people who contributed to the program. While I have no idea where Michelle comes from, I take it that Anthony comes from the UK, and I know what I come from Germany, a country that doesn't recognize releasing something into the public domain, either. In effect, that means that at least in these countries, openBVE is very likely not in the public domain despite the vision. I'm not sure about the US. Maybe openBVE really is in the public domain over there because it was declared as such. Maybe it isn't because it wasn't published in the US or was made by non-US citizens. Don't get me wrong though. I strongly support the vision - you can do what ever you want with the program if you ask me. But you'd be better off leaving legal matters to professional jurists before assuming too much.

Derryck wrote:The original post brings me to one question. Why should it be refrained from using names "openBVE" and "TSF"? As far as I remember, Michelle was always claiming that the simulator is open source and therefore ready to be taken and modified by anyone. To be honest, I have never read anything contradictory.
Surely you can make your modifications, but you shouldn't do that under the same name. Imagine all the different GNU/Linux distributions (graph) didn't have a distinct name. How would you want to tell them apart? Let's suppose we in fact put openBVE on ice for now, and that you decide to fork it (make your modifications, additions and so forth). Common sense should tell people that "openBVE" is something associated to the group of people who created it. That would be us. Not you. But if you decide to brand your fork under the same name, then people who are looking for the original might stumble across your fork. And if you brand it as openBVE 2.0, then you'd trick people into believing that you offer a later version of the original program, when in fact you offer your modification of the original program. And now suppose we decide to resurrect our program and release openBVE 2.0 (which would then in fact be a later version of the original program). Now there are two programs under the same name at the same version number. This just doesn't work. You can't just pick up the Mona Lisa, add an Eiffel Tower in the background and call that the official continuation of the picture just because you were the first to pick it up. It's not that Leonardo is ever going to come back, but your modification of the picture is still something else than the original. And it should go under a distinct title so that people can find what they're looking for and associate the different works with the right people.

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Quork on Sat May 12, 2012 10:54 am

Am I overanalyzing or do I read out correctly, that you, if you decide to continue development, are not interested in making this a classic open source project, with an open, big dev team, as already seemed to form here, but would rather stay, "Mir san mir", the team as you are?
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Dexter on Sat May 12, 2012 11:05 am

Quork wrote:Am I overanalyzing or do I read out correctly, that you, if you decide to continue development, are not interested in making this a classic open source project, with an open, big dev team, as already seemed to form here, but would rather stay, "Mir san mir", the team as you are?

I take it he does not want to be connected with any versions not directly developed by himself and therefore he wants the name to be different, so that people do not make mistakes associating him to it. Therefore the new versions should maybe be assigned some modified name: "OpenForAllBVE". I find it quite useless, talking about non-existing trademarks and copyrights, possibly even versions (2.0 etc) when all we need is just to carry on.
And forgive me for being honest, but if the sim goes to be paid, then you will have to count me out. As it was already mentiond x-times, it was laways at least freeware, the openBVE (as its own name indicates) also open source. Playing with words like "public domain is not officialy accepted in this and that country) is just putting me off way so much. I am doing this for my own (and hopefully also user's) happiness, not to watch my bank account growing.

End of.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Quork on Sat May 12, 2012 11:23 am

I was rather referring to my landsman talking about "you" and "us", with "us" seemingly referring to the 'official developer team' solely.

If, if events take a turn leading to us having an own development without Odakyufan, which I still hope to be unnecessary, I'd suggest carrying on under a GNU license (as it is as free as possible, in the same time being waterproof against all major copyright laws in the world, just like e.g. Germany which, that's right, is not permitting an author to sell, give away or dissolve their rights under no circumstances) and under the name of FreedomTrainsim, in honour of Michelle's motto "free as in freedom".
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by BruceS on Sat May 12, 2012 11:50 am

FreeBVE perhaps? Sounds about shorter...

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Quork on Sat May 12, 2012 11:57 am

As Mackoy re-took development of BVE, I do not know if it's still good to stick with BVE being an element of the name; especially as, probably, compatbility between BVE and OpenBVE will decrease.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by lonelyinardwick on Sun May 20, 2012 8:15 pm

The name BVE will eventually go away, because it is still trademark of Mackoy. I still remember Mackoy who wrote a post on his blog giving a slightly negative impression of openBVE when it was first released, he still long to have the name and logo changed*.
mackoy wrote:なので openBVE という名称とロゴは変えてくれないかなぁ...(´ε` )



Last edited by Wongie2009 on Sun May 20, 2012 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 8:22 pm

Is there something to read in that quote, only all I'm seeing is squares. Or is it Japanese characters not displaying on this PC?

And if it IS Japanese, I can't read it anyway, so a translation would be useful.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Quork on Sun May 20, 2012 8:25 pm

Seems your Windows doesn't display japanese chars, mine shows (polish Windows contains, whyever this may be, more international features than the english or the german version...). Google translates into this awful mess:

OpenBVE name and logo that is changed so Why do not I ... ('ε `)
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by LabRatAndy on Sun May 20, 2012 8:31 pm

It's most likely Japanese.

And it would be a trademark of BVE, Wongie not copyright. The 2 are similar but different.

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 8:41 pm

OpenBVE name and logo that is changed so Why do not I ... ('ε `)

Maybe it's one of those 'haiku' poems, VERY philosophical!!
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by lonelyinardwick on Sun May 20, 2012 8:42 pm

The Japanese sentence below should be encoded under UTF-8:
なので openBVE という名称とロゴは変えてくれないかなぁ...(´ε` )
Translation: So why can't openBVE change its name and logo.. :-(

If Unicode doesn't work, use Shift_JIS which is the mainstream for Japanese symbols. Mackoy was basically saying in that sentence that he still longs for the name and logo to be changed.

Ps. Thanks to LabRatAndy for clarity.

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by graymac on Sun May 20, 2012 8:54 pm

Well, Open was going to be called "Trainsim Framework" wasn't it?

Speaking with me Dev's hat on** at the end of the day it isn't so important what it is called as the fact that it exists and we work with it to produce the best work we can make, to carry on giving Microsoft a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

** Dat's the wide brim one, it falls over me ears so I can't see the wood from the trees. Not to be confused with a programmer's hat, which works the same as the coolin' fan on a CPU to stop the brains from frying.
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by alex_farlie on Sun May 20, 2012 10:45 pm

graymac wrote:Well, Open was going to be called "Trainsim Framework" wasn't it?

Speaking with me Dev's hat on** at the end of the day it isn't so important what it is called as the fact that it exists and we work with it to produce the best work we can make, to carry on giving Microsoft a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.

** Dat's the wide brim one, it falls over me ears so I can't see the wood from the trees. Not to be confused with a programmer's hat, which works the same as the coolin' fan on a CPU to stop the brains from frying.

Well I suggested 'PlatformTwo' or something as it's vaugely railway related, but generic ...

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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Quork on Sun May 20, 2012 10:51 pm

I'd like to re-propose FreedomTrainsim =D
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

Post by Dj Hammers on Mon May 21, 2012 2:51 am

A couple suggestions from myself and a couple others:
-OpenTrainSim
-OpenTrain
-OpenTrainDriver
-OpenRailway
-Beyond the Cab


Or maybe some cool name using a latin root or something...



Last edited by Dj Hammers on Mon May 21, 2012 3:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Authoritative OpenBVE Download and Documentation

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