CL 350 2012 High Quality version

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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by mrknowitall on Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:48 pm

Ah, well feel free to edit your own, BVE4TRAINZ has now closed for future releases, and i've asked for my profile on here to also be de-activated, im out.

If you havent already noticed the BVE4TRAINZ thread is no longer in the development section.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by viccylinefan on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:21 am

mrknowitall wrote:Ah, well feel free to edit your own, BVE4TRAINZ has now closed for future releases, and i've asked for my profile on here to also be de-activated, im out.

If you havent already noticed the BVE4TRAINZ thread is no longer in the development section.

you...quit..? WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH No No No Evil or Very Mad Twisted Evil
(sorry for a bit of over reaction lol Sad

viccylinefan

EDIT: before i forget. Who's gonna replace Ben as a moderator now?
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:29 am

Ben, I would have a go at changing it to stop the sway but I don't know how to, any pointers? Sorry to hear you're leaving...

Thanks,

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Northern Line on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:24 am

Tstageman wrote:Ben, new installer is absolutely excellent, a dream to use. Model is brilliant also so many thanks indeed for another fantastic train, sound mod is also very good. There is just one question, why is there so much excess like cab sway when the train is in motion....almost like its bouncing from side to side and up and down on the track, I had just driven part of the 1736 Maybank Hammerwich diagram from Maybank and leaving Maybank station was particularly bad...any ideas?

Many Thanks

Tom

The cab swaying is a default if you are using a train with a 3D cab. I guess its to only show the motion of the train
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:56 pm

No the version of the 350 I have hasnt got a 3D cab just the original verson that Oovee released but with Ben's exterior attached. Ive looked in the cab files but can't seem to find anywhere the sway setting is.

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Northern Line on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:48 pm

hmm ok well unless it is a 3D cab then it will not sway. just your everyday static train.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by mrknowitall on Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:53 pm

its do to with the trains COG, it will sway, and if you need to fix it manually, then go to the train.dat, and put the Gravity to 0.0, and the width to 0.0, and then the .csv and the .animated will automatically fix the issue of width, and your problems should be solved.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:40 pm

Thanks very much Ben

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:01 pm

I've looked in the train.dat file but there is no Center of Gravity entry in that file that I can see, is it anywhere else?

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by 92220 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:30 am

Look more carefully then:
Code:
#CAR
52.33          ; MotorCarMass
2                ; NumberOfMotorCars
13              ; TrailerCarMass
18              ; NumberOfTrailerCars
6              ; LengthOfACar
0              ; FrontCarIsAMotorCar
2.6            ; WidthOfACar
3.2            ; HeightOfACar
1.5            ; CenterOfGravityHeight
5              ; ExposedFrontalArea
1.6            ; UnexposedFrontalArea

See the 9th item after the Car section starts?
Code:
1.5            ; CenterOfGravityHeight

That's the centre of gravity height. It's well documented in Michelle's Book of Many Difficult Words.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:26 am

That would explain why I couldnt see it then as the entries in the Train.DAT file only have numbers and arent marked up with what they are. Besides I've tried changing it to 0.0 and the width but thqt doesnt work to stop the sway.

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:08 pm

Right, I've downloaded the latest version thats up for download on Bens site so I have a clean copy as it were, have tried that and it still has the sway. It can't be the COG entry as the rest of the trains I have installed still have 1.5 as the COG and they don't roll all over the place like the 350 does. I am so mystified with this as I can't think what else I can alter to make it work. I have copied the code above as it is and tried that but it doesn't make any difference as thats whats in the train.dat already. I would understand if more than one of my trains does this but its only the 350.....

Thanks

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by 92220 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 7:40 pm

Sorry, but that was the APT train.dat. Embarassed
My 390 train.dat reads
Code:

2.6            ; WidthOfACar
3.2            ; HeightOfACar
1.5            ; CenterOfGravityHeight

Having said that, my 390 is a different one with animated pantographs.

The accuracy in the route file also affects sway. An accuracy of 4 sways like a tractor on an old branch line.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:06 pm

Where abouts do I alter the accuracy though? That could be it, the 350 rocks from side to side and up and down like a ship in a rough sea, its all over the place, not realistic at all.

Tom

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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by 92220 on Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:46 pm

If you open a route csv in Notepad, after it says with track, you'll get something like this:
Code:
0,
.Accuracy 4,
.Adhesion 120,
.Height 0.5,
.Ground 0,
.back 6,

This is from the start of Clarendon with a Cl37 pulling coal hoppers on a branch line and it sways quite a bit. Throughout any route the values can change at any 25 Meter section (i.e. 0, 25, 50, 75, 100, 125, etc.) If no accuracy is set, OBVE defaults to 2. 0 means perfect accuracy (no inaccuracy at all), 1 means very good accuracy (high speed lines), 2 means good accuracy, 3 means mediocre accuracy, and 4 means poor accuracy.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Tstageman on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:22 am

Ah right ok, I'll have a crack at that and see if that makes a difference...I dont get why the 1736 Class 350 Maybank to Hammerwich route is the one I'm trying but its with every route I try the 350 on which made me think it was the train as I dont have this problem with any other trains...I'll have a try and report back.

Thanks

Tom
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Dexter on Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:32 am

92220 wrote:Want some more inside info you might not know about?

Good, so if it is an inside info, keep it as inside info and share it with eventually interested guys via pm or mail. There is no need to shout here, and that applies twice for the time of your post, since it was made within the nighttime. That is a time to wear a pajamas (or maybe nightie, pick what you prefer) and enjoy the quietness.

Let's go back to the topic.


Last edited by Derryck on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by 92220 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:39 am

OK Derryck, so back to the topic.

A train with a centre of gravity of zero simply cannot exist. A train with a width of zero simply cannot exist, and setting either value to zero is not a fix, it is a workaround, and the correct workaround would be to make the width bigger, not smaller. Once you've made such a workaround, then something else is affected such as that a wider train presents a much larger frontal area which slows the train down because of air resistance.

The actual cause of the increased sway is that to create the bogie effect, he reduces the length of all the cars, and surely anybody can see that a square block traveling along a tube will "wobble" more than a long rectangular block in the same tube.

A possible solution is to match the width to the track gauge.

albino woz ere!


Last edited by 92220 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Dexter on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:12 am

That is better. To be honest, I also find it a bit irrational to set the centre of gravity to zero... I think I should check the thing to bring some light into it. Or is somebody willing to do so?
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by pedned on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:25 am

92220 wrote:... the correct workaround would be to make the width bigger, not smaller. ...

I see where you're coming from. But in a rail simulation it's really too viable... Remember you've got gauging limitations! Idea

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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by LabRatAndy on Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:08 pm

I've not looked in depth into this but, as I understood it the bogie effect is made by having extra cars between the "main carriage" cars. So it could be that its a limitation of openBVE, as I think that it's not really designed to work like that but just does. Falling over on the physics aspect, whilst being visually more correct. Further tweaking may get a better compromise between physics and looks, however I agree just setting all physics parameters to 0 is clutching at straws.

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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by graymac on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:16 pm

The independent or pivoting bogie is a rather ingenious work round to solve an issue due to program limitations. As a method of beating the system it is mostly, but not entirely, successful.
There are minor problems. As each bogie is seen as a "car" by the config it throws the .stop instruction out of the window for multiple car stop positions at a station. It also makes it impossible to apply the correct axle weight as the loco is split effectively into three cars. It may be this inaccuracy in weight which is causing the ride characteristics to behave wrongly.
It does improve the external visuals of long bogie wagons. You have to balance the advantages with the disadvantages in deciding whether to adopt the system. For myself, I found it advantageous with a freight train of long bogie wagons, preferably leaving the loco unmodified. After initial trials I abandoned the system on all my passenger stock, mainly due to the car stops incompatibility.

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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Dexter on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:41 pm

graymac wrote:The independent or pivoting bogie is a rather ingenious work round to solve an issue due to program limitations. As a method of beating the system it is mostly, but not entirely, successful.
There are minor problems. As each bogie is seen as a "car" by the config it throws the .stop instruction out of the window for multiple car stop positions at a station. It also makes it impossible to apply the correct axle weight as the loco is split effectively into three cars. It may be this inaccuracy in weight which is causing the ride characteristics to behave wrongly.
It does improve the external visuals of long bogie wagons. You have to balance the advantages with the disadvantages in deciding whether to adopt the system. For myself, I found it advantageous with a freight train of long bogie wagons, preferably leaving the loco unmodified. After initial trials I abandoned the system on all my passenger stock, mainly due to the car stops incompatibility.

I am thinking about a solution for rotating bogies... we shall see what I come up with.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by mrknowitall on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:26 pm

For the bogies, i think ive found a twist, just making the adjustments to the layout before i can show results.
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

Post by Dexter on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:46 pm

I am thinking about a solution based on one calculation, but I am missing one variable in the equation. Very Happy
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Re: CL 350 2012 High Quality version

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