CTS work in progress

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by Quork on Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:22 pm

Curve speeds are not that easy - it's country-specific. The French e.g. allow for far more lateral acceleration than Germany. The reason is, that it's mostly comfort-driven - in most cases, the wheel-rail-forces would allow for far higher speeds.

In Germany, the rule is as follows (mind - it's regular gauge!): "Cant shortfall" must not be higher than 150mm. Cant shortfall is the difference between the actual cant and the cant which would be necessary for a lateral acceleration of 0. Actual cant must not be higher than 180mm by law, which in railway regulations translates to 160mm on ballast track and 170mm on non-balast track (due to inaccuracies in track laying). So the same radius might allow for very different speeds depending on the cant...

And then tilting trains come into play and all those rules go down the drain, since you must recalculate including the tilt Twisted Evil

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by MattD6R on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:17 am

Thanks Graymac.

the timetable to the first stop is quite tight and to arrive on time you have to brake hard to stop before the red signal. That is not how I like to stop at a red signal.
I can add a few seconds to the final release. Most of the timing is tight at present as I hate waiting at stations when I’m building the thing.

When I drove it the timetable wasn't too tight for me except up to the first station as I was on time for rest of the journey after the first station.


for some of the 50mph limits you have the limit set at 83 km/hr instead of 81 km/hr.
I’m cutting a bit of slack to make it easier. The speedo in the 22000 cab tends to read a wee bit low, Ive noticed.

You have the slightly higher limit for only some of 50 mph sections and on none of the other speed limits.

some curves are too tight for the higher speeds (if you need assistance I can help with that as I have done plenty of research on this for my WIP)
I haven’t yet found a table of max speeds for curves of radius r.
Suggest some alternative values where you feel it's necessary (with curve locations) and I will happily apply them.
As Quork explained it is quite complex and so it not as simple as a table. The only table I have come across is one for new works from over here (1067mm gauge) with these values generally agreeing with my local existing passenger lines. Cant is added for passenger comfort and not safety but will compromise safety if excessive cant is used and also if the train reaches toppling speed on track even without cant. The theoretical cant of the curve known as "equilibrium cant" is basically when the centrifugal force equals the mass of the train and you don't feel any lateral force on the curve. The difference between this cant and the actual cant is the cant deficiency.

There are limits on these values depending on the track gauge and the applied cant depends on the type and amount of different types of traffic and their speeds and also the track standard. There are also limits on the speed of the change in cant and cant deficiency know as cant gradient and cant deficiency gradient used transition curves leading in and out of curves. Trains travelling slower (eg. freight) will have excess cant and if there is a lot of this traffic will result in higher rail wear meaning cant excess should be kept to a minimum. For my route there is little official information on this. However I have found some info from another state from over here and formulas/info from other countries. This does allow me to calculate what it should be which also does seem to work correct for other countries too though there are differences. 

From what I worked out the limit on cant is up to 1/10 of the gauge as anymore increases the risk of derailment. In that other part of Australia for cant deficiency is 100mm for continuous rail, 70mm for jointed rail (for 1600mm gauge) and max cant of 130mm for continuous rail, 90mm for jointed rail and 50mm at crossings/platforms. For 1435mm gauge 130mm as max cant and at platforms/crossings 50mm whilst cant deficiency is 90mm continuous rail and 40mm for jointed rail. India for narrow gauge has cant at a  max of 90mm and cant deficiency of 50mm which is about right for here and fits in formulas that I have found. There is quite a bit of information/formulas from India available. UK has a max cant of 150mm (110mm at platforms), less on very sharp curves and for cant deficiency of 110mm for continuous rail and 90mm for jointed rail.

Curve adjustment suggestions:

  • 2000m position and 70 mph 750L would have cant of 142mm and cant deficiency of 73mm is acceptable (when I drove through this I though it was too fast but now I realize with the broad gauge it is fine as you can use more cant and cant deficiency)
  • Same for 750 R at 2500m
  • at 6500m 350 R all alright at 50 mph with a cant of 150mm and Cant Deficiency of 80mm should be increased to 400m radius (but above being broad gauge it is acceptable)
  • At 11300m 500 R at 80 mph - you won't reach 80 mph thorough this curve but a limit of 50 mph is possibly needed up to this curve.

So the first three curves above are fine unless the track is built to a low standard which it doesn't feel like when I tested the route.
2 aspect signals with no warning for red signals. Most signals were green but red signals at Dereen Junction and Kilmagranny didn't have advanced warning though I had enough distance to stop plus the warning from CAWS but not as much I would expect. 3 aspect signal before Liosmore gave plenty of warning to the red signal at the station.
Currently I’ve got a 3asp sig 400m before the points at Derreen Jct, and a 2asp protecting the points themselves. The end-of-platform “starter” aspect will depend if the train is to stop here (ALL passenger trains will stop here) and is the usual “timed to clear before departure” pattern.Also, I’ve put a 3asp (w/feather) in advance of Kilmagranny bay, which anticipates the state of the starter at the end of main platform - as does the repeater on the station’s double curve.

Is using 2 aspect signals on a main line standard practice as you won't get advanced warning of the red as it doesn't show a yellow signal. Before  Derreen Jct yes there is a 3 aspect sig but that displays a green and so does the 2 aspect signal before the station. Killmagranny is the same with 2 green signals 100 m apart before the station.


On the goods loop for the diverging track 50 mph might be too high using the 100m crossover.
The points will allow for 50mph, but it is probably too fast if you want to stop the train at the end of the loop, rather than continue straight through. I’ll drop it down a bit.
I think that you would need a longer turnout of around 150m as I think you need a minimum of  50 m for 15mph, 75m for 40km/hr and 100m for 30mph.

Yikes! with your railways. Then how about this for trouble from here Mad : http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/queensland-rail-paid-bonuses-as-chaos-consumed-network-20161118-gssqbm.html

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by graymac on Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:41 pm

Is using 2 aspect signals on a main line standard practice as you won't get advanced warning of the red as it doesn't show a yellow signal. Before  Derreen Jct yes there is a 3 aspect sig but that displays a green and so does the 2 aspect signal before the station. Killmagranny is the same with 2 green signals 100 m apart before the station.
It's usual Irish practice for the crossings to be protected by 2 aspect signals. As the single track between passing loops can be considered as a block section there's really no other reason for signalling other than crossing safety. In truth, I could dispense with the "starter" at Derreen Jcn - it just looks more interesting to have one!
All Sigs/points in these modern days are remotely controlled from a central train control centre (in actuality at Dublin and Athlone).

I'm going to incrementally apply the limits after Liosmore, with a 50 in advance of the 80.
And a 30 limit for the left branch of the passing loop.

The limits I applied on the curves are "guesstimated" broadly from my experience riding on 22000 units on the Westport-Dublin route, on which this fictional route is heavily based. The Irish gauge (1600mm) is slightly broader than "standard" - as any eejit who tries it with a Pendolino will see!! Thanks to Leezer for his excellent TrackGen program - allowing true 1600 implementation and ensuring only gray's trains will work on gray's routes Very Happy

Looks like Queensland needs a good shake up!! I've heard it said that Irish Rail management is "top heavy", can't comment as I don't have the data to express an opinion. All I will say is that my own experience using the Irish Rail has been overwhelmingly positive, with excellent customer care, reliable, clean trains and decent punctuality. The staff "at the coalface" do a grand job. I've never met the management.

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by MattD6R on Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:48 pm

With the 2 aspect signals I was asking because if you are expected in stop there might not be enough stopping distance but that might not be a problem it that would be very rare. Over here we don't have such signals just regular block signals with the crossings triggered by the train at a certain distance. The signals like yours is Remote Controlled Signaling (RCS) from Mayne near Brisbane City. Being a urban area to increase capacity for trains following each other there are numerous signals on single track sections breaking up the section into smaller blocks.

But shouldn't those 3 aspect sigs be yellow for the red at the platform or then there is no point having them? Sounds good with those limits you are going to add.

You have done a good job guessing the speed for the curves as for your gauge they are acceptable. It was just at the time I forgot to realize the broad gauge you have. Queensland has 1067mm and elsewhere here (mostly!) 1435mm. And the Track Gen has been very helpful for me doing narrow gauge for my route also. Thanks Chris.

Our railways are in a big mess due to hopelessly crazy politicians which started with a previous government with major cuts which is now becoming more apparent with the current government not handling it well. There has been issues in the last few years including a new rail river crossing stuck in planning for 8 years, no new major rail project planned with 300,00 new homes needing building in the next 25 years due to population growth, new trains built in India (not locally like it has for the last 40 years) taking 9 months  for testing with problems, not enough trains in peak hour with shorter trains used and overcrowding, a council and it's bus network completing with the railways and the transport authorities in no control of the rail operator or the council whilst the rail operate management is no better. After the new timetable there were lot of cancellations, followed by another timetable with removed/aerated services followed by another timetable with more changes with inconsistencies in services in the published timetable. The trains here ride quite well some almost 40 years old, the staff are helpful and reliability is reasonable (except for the last month with last min cancellations) but quite good out of peak hour. Though I don't travel too far so the services has been quite good and generally the stations and trains kept clean and easy to use.

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by graymac on Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:04 pm

G-d save railways from the government and the bureaucrats!!
So, next I'm going to draft some additional timetable slots and maybe add one with some devilish TSRs and the PW gang putting the kibosh on running to time!! Then I think I'll offer a download link on here for BVEWW users to get it first before I release it on the CTS website. Smile

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by Quork on Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:41 pm

I would love to give it a beta run as well!

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by graymac on Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:33 pm

I would love to give it a beta run as well!
I've sent you a PM Smile 

Stephen Cross has persuaded me to use curved track objects for 2000m+ radii curves (currently using a straight 25m section) and he's taken the trouble to send me some he made up for his own copy of the beta. These will be included in later releases, so thanks to Stephen for his time and interest there.

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by MattD6R on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:02 pm

Graymac, I gave the 09.00 6 car run of your updated runs a go. I have noticed a few things (sorry):

  • The stopping tolerance at Rathduff (at the end of platform) is very tight and is easy to miss the stop if going more than a couple of mph.
  • Also is the suitcase half way along the platform at Rathduff and Liosmore for the 3 car trains as that may cause confusion for this 6 car run.
  • At Dereen Jct you have a 3 aspect signal a good distance before the station showing a green and a 2 aspect sig before the platform with green for the red 2 aspect sig at the platform. As a result there is no yellow signal as a warning before the red signal though I stopped at the station in time just with less room to spare than I would expect with a red signal.
  • the loop line when you take the diverging track has a limit of 81km/hr instead of the lower limit you have as per the limit signage. When held at the red signal at the end of the loop the signal clears to green before I stop but you have it set as a station stop without the doors opening
  • you have the curve after the loop with a limit of 81km/hr instead of 83km/hr like the rest of the 0 mph curves
  • It good to see a yellow signal before Killmagranny though you do have two 3 aspect signals 100 m apart before Killmagranny. That doesn't make a difference stopping at the red signal at the station as I had enough distance but if you had a red signal before the platform it wouldn't give much distance to stop in time.
  • The timing is quite easy to keep to except for stopping at Killmagranny where I arrive a few seconds late because I stopped at the diverging track of loop stop after the signal cleared to green as I explained above.
  • And with the 2 aspect sigs I can see they would give enough stopping distance because some of them seem to be distant signals (because they stay green as you pass them). Though with only the red signals at the stations it doesn't matter too much. The 2 aspect distant signal before the loop line gave plenty of warning for the signal at the end of the loop.

Other previous issues are fine now including the revised speed limits and I have enjoyed this route. I will give the other runs a go also. Smile

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by graymac on Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:25 pm

The suitcases are as you guessed, the "markers" for the 3/6 car variations. Some of my other routes use the same visual aid, UK style car stop boards are by no means widely used yet in Ireland.
The red sigs at the stations are really redundant, as these stations are stopping places for all routes so far. Possibly, I might make a variation later that doesn't stop at Liosmore, in which case the sig would show green. (they're dependent on the .sta route command) These platform sigs may useful only in so far as they are an external visual indication in advance of a stopping place, that's all.
In the looploses a few seconds, so some runs you're maybe a bit late and others not. And it's random. Rather like the real thing from my experience travelling on it Smile On one occasion this year I recall travelling back to Westport from Portarlington and being held in every bloody passing loop on the way!!! Twisted Evil

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by MattD6R on Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:57 pm

Over here we don't have stopping signs just colored squares painted on the platform edge. I understand you don't really need the red signals at the stations though but I think you should give some warning for the red signal at Dereen Jct like you have with Killmagranny. It's obviously a low traffic line and as especially if you won't have two trains in the same direction on the same single track section at the same time you don't need those station signals. But the stations signals are still useful if you need to delay the train just like that you have other signals on the route. With the diverging track of loop you have it set as a station stop but the sig clears before I can stop? I do like the random nature of the route as it makes it more interesting just like real railways and changes that can happen.

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by Quork on Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:58 pm

Exit from Rathduff: The lanterns on the sad remains of a semaphore seem to float freely in the air. Apart from that, I'd rather guess the lanterns wouldn't have stayed up there - they're just as needed as replacement parts as the signal arm.
Approach to Liosmore: The cows are too visibly uniform. Here's some well-licensed images, which could be used: http://www.textures.com/download/animalsdomestic0025/84094 http://www.textures.com/download/animalsdomestic0002/9213 http://www.textures.com/download/animalsdomestic0003/9215 http://www.textures.com/download/animalsdomestic0011/23029 Also I could look through my photos whether I have some, if so, I'd give them gladly to you!
Exit from Liosmore: The van's two-dimensional wheels are very obvious here. I think adding a grey rectangle perpendicular to the 2D wheel would do the trick! (PW run)
Between Liosmore and Dereen Jct I noticed the car wheels are static while the cars drive on the bridge. Obviously animating the wheels would be utterly senseless, but what about blurring the wheel texture on the textures?
Between the disused station and Kilmagranny: The tree lines are a bit too straight IMHO, would it be possible to loosen the line a bit?
Between the disused station and Kilmagranny, where speed drops 90->80->70->60: The ground texture is nice, but it tiles faaar too visibly. You might finding something to your satisfaction among those: http://www.textures.com/browse/leaves-dead/43017 http://www.textures.com/download/groundplants0097/16061 http://www.textures.com/download/groundplants0127/23965 http://www.textures.com/download/groundplants0076/13102
Kilmagranny is very much a quintessence of modernity on branch lines: Both sad and hopeful, both tattered and neat.

I won't comment on Irish rail signalling, since I'm pretty much without knowledge on it. I do find my way around it as a simulation user, but I do not have the slightest idea about how it is really done. Many things seem weird to me, but that's probably due to a vastly different signalisation philosophy.

The timetable is modern in that it is tight, but feasible. I had no problem in keeping on time despite the TSR's and despite not knowing the route at all. Though I guess that could relate to me simply being used to driving on tight timetables. There's timetables with not one minute of reserve between Frankfurt and Fulda (check the map for the distance)...


All in all: Great work as usual!

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by graymac on Tue Nov 22, 2016 12:05 pm

Believe it or not, there's old semaphores remaining on disused lines in Ireland with the remnants of lanterns still attached, safe from the depredations of souvenir hunters!!!

The vehicles are a mish-mash of previously created stock, not all of which have 3D wheels. I might add cylinders to the vans (the skoda parked next to it has them) but rotating wheels are definitely off the menu.

I rather give the farm livestock low priority, if I wanted to get obsessive about it there's loads of cattle in the fields around my village and all waiting to pose for the camera!!! Smile   Again, the animals date back to BWR2012 era mostly un-changed.

Thanks for the texture links, even if I don't change anything in this work they may be useful for later projects.

Cheers, gray

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Re: CTS work in progress

Post by graymac on Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:03 pm

Thanks to all my good friends in the community who provided feedback for the modern version of Kilmagranny. Four timetabled route variations with the package, all using the now ubiquitous 22000 ICR units.
It's not yet officially released on the CTS website for download, but just for BVEWW users only the files are available with this link:
http://celtictrainsim.com/ctsdownloads/kilmagranny/kmg2016.7z

Enjoy!! Very Happy

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Re: CTS work in progress

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