Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

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Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by Quork on Sat May 23, 2015 11:29 am

Now that's some great news! bounce bounce bounce While there are no final results yet, it seems the Irish People, despite being usually perceived as very catholic, voted for gay marriage - with an overwhelming majority! Thus they're, to my knowledge, the first country introducing homosexual marriage by referendum. (Wikipedia lists three referendums introducing gay marriage in the world, but these were on subnational level, all three in single states of the US). Also they're becoming the thirteenth European country (and nineteenth in the world) introducing full gay marriage (as opposed to so-called "civil partnerships" as e.g. in the UK or Germany).

IRELAND, YOU ROCK! PositiveHappyPositive
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by graymac on Sat May 23, 2015 10:39 pm

It is only right that gay couples should be allowed to marry.
Why should heterosexual people have the monopoly on all the misery Razz

(I would have said "yes" anyway, just to stick two fingers to the god-botherers - I hate hypocrites and meddling religious nutters)
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by Quork on Sat May 23, 2015 11:37 pm

Yeah =)

I can't help but wonder, what the No-campaign wanted to say with "save the right to conscience" or something like that. Did they think gay marriage would relieve their priests from the responsibility and guilty conscience of the catholic paedophily affair...? No it doesn't.

And "children have a right for mom and dad" - yeah, right, tell all those abandoned children in orphanages, who were "created" by heterosexual couples. I guess they'll be thrilled.
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by thehoviskid on Sun May 24, 2015 10:33 am

Quork wrote:Did they think gay marriage would relieve their priests from the responsibility and guilty conscience of the catholic paedophily affair...? No it doesn't.

I must object to that.  

Are you asserting that all catholic priests are paedophiles?  That the the only priests that are paedophiles are catholic, or that it is impossible for a gay to be a paedophile?  Or that the only paedophiles are priests?  Personally, I seriously doubt that the "two-wrongs-make-a-right" notion had much to do with the vote, but I'd be interested in any proof that it did.

As we've seen in recent times, it isn't always easy to detect these people before it's too late- this applies to all walks of life.  The primary issue facing the catholic church is how that is dealt with when discovered, and that's where most of the unacceptable issues and breakdowns of trust lie- dealing with it in-house doesn't work.





The topic of this thread is concerned with the solemnizing of Marriage, and possibly by extension whether you consider that to be a civil matter, or a sacrament of the church or both.
If you believe it to be a civil matter, then really, changing the world from "civil partnership" to Marriage doesn't appear to make a great deal of difference- surely it could be considered to devalue civil partnerships for anyone in them?  
If you believe it to be a sacramental thing, then you have to accept what sacraments can be administered in what circumstances.  So, if you are catholic it's not going to happen, which isn't exactly a secret.  After all, you wouldn't expect to find someone ordained a priest if they're not baptised- it wouldn't be valid no matter how loudly you shout the words.  

So, we have two opposing views, the traditional side are simply saying "No, that can't happen because" while the liberal all-encompassing argument are currently sharpening the pitchforks.  Funny how intolerant the liberal side of any argument is, eh?  If anyone is going to apply Pope Francis' "Who am I to judge?" comment, then they have to apply it equally to themselves.

Beyond that, it's been voted in, having been subject to a pubic vote.  
That means that you can still disagree with it.  Or you can agree with it and carry on from there.  
But surely forcing a catholic priest to perform a gay marriage in a catholic church, and so against the beliefs of the participants who can truly say they share the beliefs of that specific church would be about as worthwhile as making David Cameron stand on stage and sing a rousing rendition of "keep the red flag flying" at the Labour Party conference for the sake of political equality?  It would be hollow, invalid rhetoric in that situation, and where would be the actual worth in doing it other than for the purposes of ridicule?  
You don't like the brewery that owns your local pub?  Either drink in it or go somewhere else.  That's your choice, but to have a choice, you have to be allowed options.  No options.... well, it's all a bit 1984 isn't it?

So, if people are truly catholic and are gay, they should really be accepting of the situation regarding marriage.  Otherwise, you could say they're not truly catholic, so where would be the point in being married in a catholic church?

Polygamy then, when are we legalising that?  After all, it's allowed someplace but not here?  That's not equality, is it?  tongue
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by graymac on Sun May 24, 2015 9:40 pm

 That's your choice, but to have a choice, you have to be allowed options.  No options.... well, it's all a bit 1984 isn't it?
It wasn't civil society but rather the Church that restricted options by denying access to the rites of marriage to homosexual or lesbian couples. Unless the Church abides by the new laws it could have its licence to perform marriages revoked by the civil authorities. That would be an interesting situation.

In practice I've no doubt some churches will resist change for as long as they can. Reactionary old farts such as the clergy are slow to adapt, if they adapt at all. Never mind gays, look at the way women are regarded by many in both the Catholic and Protestant churches. 100% Equality isn't yet here.

A lot of the clerical resentment is due to these changes representing a further erosion of priestly power. The Catholic church in particular was up until very recently (especially in Ireland) a haven for petty tyrants in cassocks.

As for the "pub analogy" -  fortunately I won't be knocking back the vino and the holy pringles in any one of the Pope's chain of holy taverns any time soon Twisted Evil But I'll raise a glass to the thousands of open-minded Catholics on this island who did vote for change. Its with them that the future lies, not the blinkered dinosaurs of the past who will, hopefully, soon be gone.
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by Quork on Mon May 25, 2015 12:10 am

Oh by Odin's light, claiming society's tolerance for intolerant behaviour is really lame. Your marriage doesn't lose any value by other people marrying. And while I'm no Christian at all, I do understand fairly much about Christianity and also have read much of the New Testament (three out of the four official gospels, several apostolic letters etc.) (more than many a self-proclaimed deep-believer by my experience). And for all I understand, there's only one entity (though the question, whether the entity is a duity or most commonly trinity has been fought upon many a time) in your belief who has the right to judge if someone is truly catholic. For all I can tell their city of residence is not Heysham ;-)
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by thehoviskid on Tue May 26, 2015 11:18 am

Quork wrote:Your marriage doesn't lose any value by other people marrying.
No, you misinterpret my point- it has no impact on the validity or otherwise of my own marriage.  

Since a gay marriage can never (in the case of the catholic church, which is where the major part of the discussion seems to be centred) be sacramental, it has the same standing in that respect as a civil marriage- it's a duly registered legal joining.

My point was that, for anyone having already entered a civil partnership with all the joy and ceremony attached to that, suddenly saying "Oh, you can do this now instead" surely devalues what you've already got?  Like saying "this thing you have done, where you have made public vows and so on?  Well that's now worth less than it was last week".

Of course, it's up to other denominations what they do, in line with their teaching, but predictably that debate here is centred on the Catholic Church
Quork wrote:claiming society's tolerance for intolerant behaviour is really lame
That's not a very tolerant statement though, is it?   tongue 
You can force me to tolerate a colleague at work eating stinky Peanut-Butter on Toast, but you can't make me approve it!
Quork wrote:And for all I understand, there's only one entity (though the question, whether the entity is a duity or most commonly trinity has been fought upon many a time) in your belief who has the right to judge if someone is truly catholic. For all I can tell their city of residence is not Heysham ;-)
No indeed, not in Heysham!

Nor, in the case of the Catholic Church, in Germany, County Mayo, Dublin, London, Washington or anywhere other than in Rome.  That's where there's a whole load of people who act, hopefully with due guidance from above, very much like the Synods in the Church of England and the rest of the Anglican community- the Pope himself actually has much smaller powers with regard to changing of doctrine that many people suppose.

But in a more immediate sense, anyone joining the ship will be required at the relevant ceremony to say "I believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God" and you need to either make that statement and stand by it or not.  
Just like we agree to abide by the rules of this forum as a condition of us being a member of it and receiving the benefits that bestows; we may, of course, chose to abandon those rules, but wilfully doing so could be seen as removing yourself from this community even before any official sanctions took place.

So, in that respect, the person one who decided if someone is truly catholic is, in the immediate sense, themselves, surely?
A little optional extension, click to expand:

Of course, all of this naturally leads on to the whole "organised religion" debate- do we need rules?

In the Church of England, the principle service book is either the "Book of Common Prayer" or "Common Worship", the word Common in this case not meaning the prayers we say often, but the prayers we say together.  Now, of course, when you're on your own, you can (provided it's not Something Bad in the eyes of whatever faith you follow) you can say whatever prayers you want however you want- that's a private matter between you and the man upstairs.  But, as soon as you start involving more than one person, you will have arguments.  Like this!

So, when you have a building full of people assembled to say prayers, there is something to be done, and it must be done somehow, in a way that isn't going going to cause a riot, or (in the true English tradition) require the forming of a committee- it's often said that a camel is a horse designed by a committee....

To illustrate my point, the Quakers are generally accepted as having no fixed ceremonial?  Well, on their website it says:

http://www.quaker.org.uk/what-happens-meeting-worship wrote:
A Quaker meeting creates a space of gathered stillness. We come together where we can listen to the promptings of truth and love in our hearts, which we understand as rising from God. Our meetings are based on silence: a silence of waiting and listening. Most meetings last for about an hour.
The silence is different from the silence of solitary meditation, as the listening and waiting in a Quaker meeting is a shared experience in which worshippers seek to experience God for themselves. The seating is usually arranged in a circle or a square to help people be aware of one another and conscious of the fact that they are worshipping together as equals. There are no priests or ministers.
The silence may be broken if someone present feels called to say something which will deepen and enrich the worship. Anyone is free to speak, pray or read aloud if they feel strongly led to do so. This breaks the silence for the moment but does not interrupt it.
In the quietness of the meeting, we can become aware of a deep and powerful spirit of love and truth, transcending our ordinary, day-to-day experiences. This sense of direct contact with the divine is at the heart of the Quaker way of worship and nourishes Quakers in the rest of their daily lives.

Even a quick skim through that shows at least two things that could be considered a rule/guideline/rubric?

So, I maintain my position that it's an individual's choice to become/remain catholic based on their own individual beliefs-  if you want to belong to a particular religion/denomination/sect/web forum/stamp-collecting club you agree to and follow "the rules" for that, or you don't join it.  
Would it be appropriate to compel a stamp collecting club to start dealing with digital photography, just because a photographer feels aggrieved that the club doesn't deal with that, when there's a digital photography club down the road?

I think there's a risk of tolerance becoming the new intolerance.
However I'm concious that this is all getting away from the topic?  Is this thread discussing Gay Marriage, the Catholic Church's long-standing position on it, or both?  We can go around in circles all day on the latter, and get very cross with each other, so unless specifically invited to, it may be as well if I don't reply further.  I'm not going off in a huff, but I'm aware that a more traditional viewpoint may stifle the discussion somewhat.
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Re: Congrats to ÉIRE/IRELAND! First nation introducing Gay Marriage BY REFERENDUM

Post by Dexter on Tue May 26, 2015 4:36 pm

The team will keep an eye on this topic, since even though so far it has been carried out in a relatively fair manner. Please keep it that way.
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